The Gaming Den

Orion wrote:@Lokathor: What supports have you tried playing? I didn't have much trouble going from Bronze V to Bronze I playing support almost exclusively.Maybe Sona is a little too passive? If you're better than the other team, it's easy to rack up lots of kills on Nami or Zyra or Karma, and then carry your team like any other AP.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/34560308#masteries

I'll say that about 60% of my losses have legit been my fault. Sometimes you're in top and the bot lane is a Varius with 2/11 at 25 minutes and you just can't do anything about it.

Officially ranked now, Silver I!

Lokathor wrote:

Orion wrote:@Lokathor: What supports have you tried playing? I didn't have much trouble going from Bronze V to Bronze I playing support almost exclusively.Maybe Sona is a little too passive? If you're better than the other team, it's easy to rack up lots of kills on Nami or Zyra or Karma, and then carry your team like any other AP.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/34560308#masteries

I'll say that about 60% of my losses have legit been my fault. Sometimes you're in top and the bot lane is a Varius with 2/11 at 25 minutes and you just can't do anything about it.

You could start getting better early on by fixing your masteries, really.

Take page 1. 24/3/3? You could take the 3 points out of Havoc, which are useless, and the 3 points out of Meditation and work on managing your mana better. In exchange you get 2 armor or MR and +30 HP at level 1. The difference in durability at that level is enormous.

Similarly, your "full offense" page -- when would this ever be useful? Even if I was playing AP Kayle (which I do whenever I need to top), I'd only take 21 points in Offense (both pens + spellblade, but wouldn't bother with Mental Force or Archmage). You're leaving such a huge bounty of defensive stats on the table when you run stuff like that.

The easiest way to rise in lower ranks is to play a really heavy lane domination champion in any role, bonus points for being able to snowball multiple lanes (TF, Shen, Pantheon, Fizz, Ahri). This means you don't jungle unless it's gank-heavy and can carry (Vi, Shaco, Udyr against bad people, Hecarim). Then again, you have to be able to carry, and a lot of people aren't aware of how to snowball an early advantage into a win. It's great if you set your team up for a win by giving them 4 kills, but unless you group early to take advantage of it you piss away your lead.

The fastest I ever gained ELO/LP was when I started playing only Taric and calling level 1 invades every game. Securing FB and then playing hyper-aggressive in lane (even if somebody else on your team got the FB) is very scary to people who aren't confident in their abilities. New Taric is especially scary at level 2 if you run a heavy armor page because of his shatter burst and the bigger armor aura.

Taric with a full armor page is way too strong at level 2 against physical damage (and does ~90 damage with just one spell that then increases his own AD's damage), and people at lower ranks won't recognize it until it's too late. Taric's got a shitballs lategame unless you're against a heavy AD team, but holy shit is he terrifying early. Not every support gets 300 burst damage with armor reduction off a guaranteed stun at level 6.

Edit: I should mention that Taric's auto attacks are fucking ridiculous right now as well, since his base mana is incredible. He does an extra 6 damage per auto against champions at level 1, and it goes up by 2 every level just from his natural mana gains, in addition to his crazy auto attack damage scaling (he has one of the best base autos in the game on top of his passive). Smart players know to avoid getting in Taric's range, but he is incredibly punishing and will rip the enemy AD or support apart long before they can kill him or his AD if they can't kite.


TGD team: Mid is far and away my best role at this point, with my jungle and support being serviceable. I'm also good at Irelia and a bunch of AP tops, but top lane is boring and snowbally and I only learned it so I had a good top lane for when I get forced there in ranked or see a really easy matchup. My AD is ok and I tend to do fine when I play it, but I don't like having such a tiny effect on the lane phase and my champ pool for it is pretty much Caitlyn, Ashe and Vayne (and Draven if I'm drunk).



ALSO I FINALLY LEARNED FIZZ! It feels so good. Something clicked and I realized how easy it is to dodge everything and kill fools.

Surgo wrote:You could start getting better early on by fixing your masteries, really.

Most of the first three pages are based around ARAM use

Surgo wrote:Take page 1. 24/3/3? You could take the 3 points out of Havoc, which are useless, and the 3 points out of Meditation and work on managing your mana better. In exchange you get 2 armor or MR and +30 HP at level 1. The difference in durability at that level is enormous.

Okay you're right on Havoc, but I'd rather have the points in Meditation than going for Veteran's Scars.

Surgo wrote:Similarly, your "full offense" page -- when would this ever be useful?

You know, I made it just the other day for something, but I forget what. I think it was the Twisted Treeline Teemo match I played in. It was Teemo / Mundo / Fizz on my team, but the Fizz was a kinda crap player, so I just went nuts with Teemo and the Mundo player tanked most of the fights while I shot darts like mad. We won that match, it was cool.

Usually I'm using my Defense/Utility pages, "Support" and "Taric (Support)", depending on who I am playing as.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:The fastest I ever gained ELO/LP was when I started playing only Taric and calling level 1 invades every game.

We did an invade the other day at the blue team red bluff, but we got in so fast that they didn't even know we were in the bush next to the lizard. Blue team's Tryn came up and just stood in the open for a second with all 5 of us in the bush. Then blue team's MF came up from bot to help leash, she stepped into the bush and saw us all there, instant stun from me, she dies in about a second, tryn gets chased down a moment later, it was amazing.

Surgo is bang on the money w/r/t Ryze- if I'm at max CDR via an FH or SV or whatever i'll buy a Banshee's or an Abyssal or whatever- I'm bad enough at CS that it rarely gets to that point.

I used to play a lot of Taric support, then I went off him. In hindsight I'd usually play pretty passively in lane- I should definitely try a more aggressive role- i've got a friend in Bronze IV (he's good but erratic and bad at teamwork) who I could definitely duo-queue in bot lane with.

edit: My standard Darius page (now that i bought the 7-page bundle) is AD reds, Armor yellows, MR blues, and MS quints. My reasoning for AD reds over ArPen reds is basically that since Darius snowballs so dang hard and both his passive and ult (major sources of damage in lane) aren't affected by ArPen, AD reds do more to help you snowball. If I'm up against Riven, say, where I know that barring some great ganks or absurd luck I'm not going to be snowballing, I could see ArPen reds being the better choice. The MS quints I basically bought because they're great on Ryze, but they also help with securing kills in lane (since all he has is a long-cooldown grab and a low-strength slow since you max it second) along with to actually closing with carries in teamfights, since a flash-grab isn't going to do a huge amount. In a difficult lane, though, health/health regen quints or armor quints would probably be a better choice,

Lokathor wrote:
We did an invade the other day at the blue team red bluff, but we got in so fast that they didn't even know we were in the bush next to the lizard. Blue team's Tryn came up and just stood in the open for a second with all 5 of us in the bush. Then blue team's MF came up from bot to help leash, she stepped into the bush and saw us all there, instant stun from me, she dies in about a second, tryn gets chased down a moment later, it was amazing.

That's par for the course before people start dropping early wards against strong level 1s (or buy fast and get into good positions to see possible invades). Taric is the easiest first blood champ at lower ranks, all you do is point, click, and murder.

I always get really low kill rates with Taric. I can stun easily enough, but my damage is always trash. Usually I stun a high value target and then use Shatter and at that point the teammates kill them. Rare is the time when I get a kill myself, usually though Ulting.

You want to get assists instead of kills, Taric is just a really strong enabler at early levels. It's very easy to secure FB with him due to his stun and, with his new passive, damage. I think Taric is my highest K/D/A support (though I don't pick him anymore since people will just not get into stun range).

Been loving Janna again though; great counter to the blitz/leona-heavy meta. Sona really seems to have fallen out of favor...

She's got something like a 16% winrate in the last week of the LCS, and more generally it hasn't been great. She really doesn't do well pre-6 against champs that can actually engage on her, and champs like Thresh can actually counter-poke her to an extent while still having very hard engages, which makes life super hard for her.

Small sample size alert.

Korgan0 wrote:She's got something like a 16% winrate in the last week of the LCS, and more generally it hasn't been great. She really doesn't do well pre-6 against champs that can actually engage on her, and champs like Thresh can actually counter-poke her to an extent while still having very hard engages, which makes life super hard for her.

Surgo's right on the money. Thresh is non-existent in solo queue (for good reason) and he's probably her hardest counter in lane aside from Sona (who is now non-existent in solo queue because of meta shifts).

That and yeah, LCS win rates are silly. Janna is one of the best play making supports, she's just got a lane phase that can generously be described as "ok if you're extremely good with her, trash if not." Laning with a bad Janna (or laning while BEING a bad Janna) is just awful. Basically no presence at all against poke lanes.

She has a teamfight reset button, she'll pretty much always be useful unless they nerf her even more.

That'll teach me to use ambiguously referring pronouns. "She" meant Sona, not Janna.

So Rune Pages. Fuck. Why am I limited to two pages? What possible sense does that make? (Yes, I know, make me buy fucking more.) But seriously, why are there 10 free champions so I can play every roll, but I can't play as third role without spending 6300IP on a Rune page for it? This is shit.

I'm sure the fucking assholes with no lag that jump in and call the same roll every time at champ select don't care, but fuck, I try to whatever roll isn't selected, at least partially because I can never call anything, so why the fuck can I only have Rune Pages for two of them, but they still give me Sona as a free champ that I can play with AD runes?

Why can't I change my Runes at champ select like I can masteries?

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Thresh is non-existent in solo queue (for good reason)

What is the reason that Thresh is non-existent in solo queue? If it isn't because Thresh is banned, then I don't understand. Admittedly I am only level 21, but Thresh seems really good.

He is really, really good, and is basically permabanned in draft. More generally, he works much better with a coordinated team (lantern enabling lane ganks, warning for grab attempts, etc), but that applies to practically every champion.

Basically, the reason for that is that Riot love rolling around in giant piles of money. It has nothing to do with balance or complexity. Just money.

Korgan0 wrote:He is really, really good, and is basically permabanned in draft.

Okay, I thought the way it was said that he was not good, and that made no fucking sense to me.

If you don't want to buy extra rune pages, just make the following

Attack Damage Marks
Armor Seals
Scaling Magic Resist Glyphs
Attack Damage Quintessence

Magic Penetration Marks
Armor Seals
Magic Resist Glyphs
Ability Power Quintessence

First page is for AD carries, physical casters, and bruiser junglers. Second is for mages, supports, and jungle tanks. If you don't play manaless mages or jungle tanks, you can use mana regen seals for your AP page. If you play AD carry more often than top lane, you can use Lifesteal quints for your AD page. If you play physical casters frequently and carries rarely, you can use armor penetration marks and quints instead of AD. Any permutation of those pages will let you feel good about yourself while playing any champion in the league.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:You want to get assists instead of kills, Taric is just a really strong enabler at early levels. It's very easy to secure FB with him due to his stun and, with his new passive, damage. I think Taric is my highest K/D/A support (though I don't pick him anymore since people will just not get into stun range).

Been loving Janna again though; great counter to the blitz/leona-heavy meta. Sona really seems to have fallen out of favor...

Yeah, I get like 1/6/10 on average, it seems. I'm just saying that I rarely manage to get first blood or get my lane first blood, simply because, as you say, people stay well back unless it's a teamfight so there's minimal chances to stun early on.

Korgan0 wrote:He is really, really good, and is basically permabanned in draft.

Come down to Bronze level, people have the worst bans and they rarely ban thresh

Flat MRes glyphs are better on AD carries than scaling MRes glyphs. Don't underestimate how much magic damage supports and some AD carries can put out at level 1.

Orion wrote:Any permutation of those pages will let you feel good about yourself while playing any champion in the league.

No it won't. I will feel like shit playing my Thresh with either page. I will feel like shit playing my Xin, or my Mundo, or my Zac, or my Jarvan with either page.

And that is the point. A lot of rolls need some different combination to be optimally effective, especially junglers.

I win X percent of my games and have been playing all the roles without any runes for a while, it is not being able to play at some arbitrary passable level that I need, it is being optimal. Knowing I have the marks to give Xin attack speed, but am giving him AD instead is offensive.

I'm sure there's an appropriate quote from Das Kapital, but I can't be bothered to trawl through Marx's writing.

Hah, my bad on the Sona/Janna thing. Sona is very strong for reasons as well, but the current meta (mobility + assassins) is terrible for her. She's countered by burst damage, mobility, and the no-longer permabanned Blitzcrank. She's a liability against 90% of the comps you see right now.

Runes: If you want to optimize yourself for all roles, you have to spend a little money on the game. There's an RP sale right now (or there just was one, I forget when it ended/ends) and the 7 page bundle is like, $10. It's the only thing you NEED to buy to enjoy playing every role if you MUST be optimized. I know I did the 2 rune page thing for a long time (and I think you get a free rune page when you hit 30 now), then I just decided to chuck $35 at the game and got the rune page bundle twice and a fuckton of skins on sale.

For your two pages use the following: Armor yellows, MR/level blues, either AS or Mpen reds, and then flat AP or AD quints (AS page gets AD quints, Mpen reds get AP quints). They will serve you well with literally every champion in the game, though it won't be 100% optimized for anyone.

Also, don't buy runes until you can slot the third tier runes, total waste of IP. Work on getting a big champion pool.

The first page is perfectly good on Thresh and a number of other supports. You'll see a lot of pro supports take AD quints for better early level killing in lanes.

The roughest role for runes is definitely junglers. To be optimal, you often need more specific pages for individual ones.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:There's an RP sale right now (or there just was one, I forget when it ended/ends) and the 7 page bundle is like, $10.

Dunno what sale you're talking about, but currently it's $20 for enough RP to get the 7 page bundle (+400 RP left over).

Lokathor wrote:

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:There's an RP sale right now (or there just was one, I forget when it ended/ends) and the 7 page bundle is like, $10.

Dunno what sale you're talking about, but currently it's $20 for enough RP to get the 7 page bundle (+400 RP left over).

Ah, my mistake then. The sale was (is?) a doubling of bonus RP for any purchase, so you'd get an extra 500 or so RP if you spent $35. Not sure if it's still running.

With page bundle prices being brought to light, my suggestion for people who really enjoy playing multiple roles (and can't stand unoptimized rune pages) is to spend $35 and get two rune page bundles. If you can't satisfy yourself with 17 rune pages (free one for hitting 30!) just save some IP and wait for the random two-for-one page sales to hit the maximum. It'll take forever to fill 17 pages with unique combinations, though.


I still say there isn't a single role you can't be competent in up to and including diamond with the following pages.

"I deal primarily magic damage and am not jungling" page: Magic penetration marks, armor seals, Mres/level glyphs, flat AP quints.

"I jungle/deal primarily physical damage/want to play an on-hit build" page: Attack speed marks, Armor seals, Mres/level glyphs, AD quints.

IMO attack speed is absolutely required in the jungle and should be run on every jungler with the exception of Fiddlesticks. They increase your early clear by a ton because of machete's on-hit passive, and most champions deal the majority of their sustained dps through autoattacks pre-6.

If anyone ever gives you shit for running attack speed on any jungle champion (except Fiddlesticks and Karthus) they are terrible.

Sure you won't be running an optimal ADC page without life steal quints and AD marks, and you won't be doing cheese pages like straight armor or straight AP, but you'll be competitive in every position against any champion. Also, as a nice bonus, you'll never be required to build an Mres item. Mres itemization sucks right now.